Germany: Supreme Court announces upcoming decision on the doll ban

Now “pedophile experts” are coming out saying this ruling is the best thing ever, because pedophiles need to learn that even fantasies are dangerous. There can only be control. Every orgasm is dangerous and sexual fantasies in your head must be controlled, so you do not think about children sexually anymore.

This is basically just telling pedophiles to off themselves, or kill their identity. This is what people with 25 years of therapeutic experience say. Definitely not biased.

Imagine if I base my opinion on the general public through rapists only. Society is genuinely braindead.

“But Ms. Klemke, that’s just art, just fantasy—you love art too!” That’s a classic perpetrator response in the category of “trivializing criminal sexual fantasies.” I groaned inwardly.

Then goes on about how we will never know about the effects on sex dolls, because it is not ethical to research. I always wonder if these people ever heard of a place called “Japan”.

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Who is this? Perpetrate what, exactly?

Also, there’s a reason why terms like ‘deviant’ and ‘deviate’ are seldom used within the scientific community. That reason being that something’s value is not constrained or defined by its perceived (un)popularity. They’re fundamentally unscientific.

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If the crime is a fantasy, the punishment should be a fantasy as well.

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This article made me realize that a good chunk of those who claim to be sympathetic to pedophiles, feign empathy and pretend to want to help us actually just want to wipe us from the face of the earth. Not through the instrument of murder perhaps (though I’d argue that the path to there is not very long, once the idea that pedophilia cannot be allowed to exist is established as some sort of ground truth), but through criminalization and totalitarian thought control. All the while they use the power and influence they have by their profession to denounce anything we say as cognitive distortions or offender justifications, too deranged and dangerous to even listen to.

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Again, those who want to “cure” vampires are just as annoying as those who want to “destroy” them.

Criminal fantasies is such an oxymoron. In both Oblivion and KOTOR, you can penetrate a 14-year-old with a steel saber and lightsaber, respectively. I don’t see how a meat saber is a step too far… Then again, as discussed, in Germany, 14 is of age, anyway, right? Well, Mission is 14, while Dovesi is just “no older than 15”, so 14 or younger.

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Yes. If I was a doll shop then I would just provoke people by explicitly labeling dolls by their age range. Something like:

Dolls:

  • Adult (18+)
  • Teenager (14-17)

I wonder what would happen. There would be no sexual images for the teen dolls and then it would be legal.

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For the teen dolls you pobably could post sexual images even … for 14+ fictious images are legal as long as they do not younger then 14..

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No, it would fall under youth pornography, because you are explicitly disclosing their age. It would only be legal if you make it legally ambiguous by just using “Teen” and do not assign them an age below 18.

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For § 184c there is no punishment for fictious content (unlike §184b child porn) since you can generally still tell they are dolls and as such not real humans §184c does not apply. Since they are above 14 (and do not look younger then 14 a restriction I had) §184b does not apply either. The fact you gave an age does not matter. The photos are legal!

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Idk what you mean.

§ 184c also includes fictional content when it comes to distribution regardless if you can tell it is real, or not. “A youth pornographic content” applies to everything including fiction. You do NOT need to explicitly mention “fiction” or whatever. § 184b also did NOT mention fiction in distribution prior to 2021, but it was still illegal, because “child pornographic content” includes fiction. The explicit inclusion of fiction in § 184b was to assign it a lower penalty.

What you are referring to applies to possession where it is true that only real teenagers are illegal since possession does not mention “wirklichkeitsnah”.

Edit: Although it can still be illegal since the evaluation of evidence lies with the judge (Beweiswürdigung).

It only included it in cases you could not tell it appart from real content. The owing of content involving minors under 14 is still legal if it is clear that it is fictious. Read up rulings of “wirklichkeitsnahe”

Yes in the end it is a question of the judge … but realistically with a doll and a teen there probably is no one who will care …

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That is what I already told you. Whatever you are talking about does not apply to distribution, so what is your point? Anyways, enough de-railing.

UPDATE:

Complainants have filed a reconsideration to the constitutional court, because it contains many errors and ignores key arguments. The court can technically now accept this and essentially take its decision back and do another one, but the chances of that happening are pretty much zero since that never happened.

More info here:

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Here’s hoping. Hopefully the experts who protested the decision will be given more leeway to exert their authority.

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Yeah, will have to see how it goes. A group of affected people are now preparing a public campaign to highlight this shitty ruling and its consequences for society as a whole - not just pedophiles.

I also found this critique from two days ago in the “Verfassungsblog” making clear how awful this ruling is (German):

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I just hope these judges take a moment to appreciate just how contemporary and shortsighted this ruling is.

Right now, the discourse surrounding these outlets and their usage by those with attractions to children is contentious and heated. Social politics and emotion play a larger role than they should.

But what about tomorrow?

Eventually, an empirical consensus will form that leans towards a specific direction, and I can tell you it won’t be supportive of prohibition.

And Germany will be forestalled from capitalizing on these findings and consensus.

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Campaign site has been updated visually and structurally to make it work for a long-term fight:

An application to the European Court of Human Rights is being prepared as well.

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One could argue that it’s no different than prohibition (of alcohol). No one wanted that except the religious moralists. Yet, pedophelia is considered abhorrent behavior by society. I don’t believe it is. It’s the mentally deranged predator that will go after the weakest and most vulnerable. Just so happens to be the young. If they weren’t afraid of getting caught or found out later, they wouldn’t murder their victims.
No different than animals in the wild looking for easy prey. Rapists looking for an easy target that won’t fight back.
Whereas consuming alcohol is a big part of everyday society. However, there are laws that stipulate who can buy it. Adults over 18.

(See that? “Over 18”. Because 100 years ago, people thought nothing of putting their 10yos to work. And most 10yos with an 8th grade education were smarter than most college graduates today. Most cultures consider boys, men, when they “come-of-age” at 13. Girls too, once they start menstruating. Because they’re now able to bear children. Some even much younger.) This *over 18" is a modern-day idea. Most people know who they are by the age of 12.

Of course you’re not allowed to consume it while at work (except those upper management, martini lunches and social business meetings. :roll_eyes: ), while driving or operating heavy machinery. Drink it too much and now you need help. FFS. :roll_eyes:

Smoke too many cigarettes and there’s never an intervention. Go figure? Neither of which is harmless. Alcohol can be harmful to others if you’re drunk and drive or operate heavy machinery. So they have laws to keep someone from harming others while using it. Smoking generally only affects the person doing it long term. And sometimes those around them, but, no laws. Well, except nowadays with rules against doing it in certain places where others have no choice but to be breathing it in as well.

Dolls on the other hand, affect no one directly. With little to zero proof they indirectly affect others. They’re only sold to adults over 18 to begin with. With no laws. Just adults being responsible. They’re kept and enjoyed in private spaces, where no one should be prying into or looking. Voyeurism is considered illegal. Peeping Tom laws where you’re not allowed to spy on others in their private spaces. Now we have anti-“nudifying” AI laws. WTF?? The war on cartoons and drawings.

Yet nowadays the gov. and agencies feel they have a right to peep into everyone’s private affairs and spaces. Listen to every phone call. Read eveyone’s email. All in the name of public safety. Wouldn’t want some radicals conspiring against the gov. or plotting some terrorist attack! And the sheeple are forced to go along with these Orwellian tactics. All in the name of keeping people safe.

The second amendment exists so that that gov. is not allowed to feel safe. They’re not supposed to feel safe. They work for us! The people. Should they try to lord over the people or become tyranical; we the people have every right to oust them. Take our guns, take our lives. There’d be no escaping tyranny.

And here we are; in the midst of tyranny against doll owners who may or may not be “using” them that may or may not lead to indirectly affecting someone else. All because most people find the idea that when they’re used in certain ways; abhorrent. Well what about people that don’t use them as a sex toy?? They’re not hurting anyone.

Society says, “No. Anyone that owns them must be using them as a sex toy and therefore anyone that owns one must be a pedophile. And all pedophiles must be removed from society for the safety of “the children”.” Quite a leap IMO! Add to that, “we’ve found a few people with CSAM that had a doll and so anyone that has a doll must be in possession of CSAM.” Another il-logical assumption. It’s their hatred of the predators that they assume are all pedophiles. Some of them may be? But they’re mentally deranged, opportunistic rapists. So in turn they hate ALL pedophiles. Because of a few mentally ill people.

Well I hate to break it to those authoritarians; it’s none of your GD business! Basing laws on feelings and reactionary emotions is WRONG !! Yes, investigate and prosecute those who produce and distribute CSAM. It’s ruining the young victims’ lives. But going after doll owners all in the name of protecting the children is based on zero evidence of there being any victim in connection with a doll. All the “evidence” is based on supposition and assumption. Laws should be based on overall facts. Yet all they can use to back them up are a few outlier cases of mentally deranged predators.

I belong to the group of pedophiles that aren’t predators. Children are beautiful! I admire them and they remind me of a time when I was innocent and happy! 'Cause now I’m mostly miserable. :sob: I’d like to believe that’s true for all of us. We were all children at one time. Some of us really miss being one. There are bad actors in every group. For those of you that were abused, I’m so sorry you had to endure being a victim. Break the cycle.

I have no nterest of getting a minor involved in any sexual situation or my private fantasies. It’s not the reason I bought dolls in the first place. I don’t have to explain or give a reason, but I will for my own sake. I was extremely lonely and will never have children. They’re my surrogate family. When I discovered tham I was about to look for a permanent solution to my desparation. They saved my life and gave me back my joy! And I’m sure that any child would likely enjoy my doll’s company. Whether having a tea party, dressing them up, or some other innocent activity. And that’s my business.

For those that have other fantasies, that’s your business. That’s where dolls fit perfectly. If that’s what someones in the mood for, the inanimate object can satisfy that. No harm to anyone. It’s not alive. It’s not another person.

If I just want to dress them up, brush and braid their hair, paint their nails, do their make-up, “play house”, and take pictures for myself; that’s my perogative and no one else’s concern.

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Germanys biggest and most well-known lawyer Youtuber has released a video going through the ruling and comes to the conclusion that the ban is wrong and too far-reaching citing that this is not limited to dolls, or pedophiles only. He argues that with the courts logic you could also ban video games and other forms of fictional media or behaviour that would be illegal in real life. He also says that there needs to be a line that no state should be able to cross and compares this ban to stuff like chat control.

The comments are overwhelmingly against the ruling which is a surprise.

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