It is torture because it causes psychological torment which pushes them to suicide.
Mengele conducted experiments on all the people he saw as subhuman, it was for the good of science, no one will miss them, right? Last I heard of him, he was in the run in Argentina from Nazi Hunters who wanted to execute him.
It is torture because it causes psychological torment which pushes them to suicide.
Evidence? Also do you have proof that anti-depressants wouldn’t be an effective way to resolve psychological side effects? I know very well some of those experimented on will be harmed, so the fuck what? If it leads to better outcomes over time. Science requires risks to be taken.
And this isn’t the first time people compare me to Mangele. I really don’t care. Hard decisions are required for the advancement of science. The “Do no harm” is a general rule rather than an absolute. Those who risk a lifetime of guilt by violating these general rules for a greater good should honored. Mangele’s experiments were of limited value to us, and his victims were of innocent people, or of whom’s crimes certainly were not among the worst. He targeted transgender people who were similar to me as well as LGB people because of their sexuality. What I advocate for cannot be compared to Mangele. My advocacy is under the idea of utilitarianism. His vision was to indulge in a sadistic spree.
I for one have an enormous amount of sympathy for psychologists that choose to force the worst sex offenders onto these drugs so long as they are doing so for some greater good. They are heros in my eyes as they are risking their own psychological well being for the good of mankind. Life long guilt if the experiment goes horribly wrong is a huge risk, and I admire those who under take the needed work.
I can only be convinced by cold hard logic. Appeals to emotions are worthless.
I believe Poland sentences people who have cp to this, although Poland like Hungary is an authoritarian nightmare state.
Please don’t apologize for Mengele, I’m going to keep reporting you until you get banned.
No one cares how offended you are of these ideas. And no, I do get along with the admins of this forum quite well, I’m not going anywhere. Anyhow, the greater good does not depend on those unable to think rationally.
I believe Poland sentences people who have cp to this, although Poland like Hungary is an authoritarian nightmare state.
Also, what were the results? I’m looking at impact on recidivism, emotional well being of the offender as well as the acceleration of rehabilitation of the offender if such impact exists. If they are doing this for everyone with a CP conviction, there is a problem since there are many who do not benefit from it, and there are some which violate CP laws not motivated by sexual interest which obviously would not benefit from such drugs.
If they were only using it in specific cases, this is something I could consider. I definitely can get behind forcing some CP offenders to take these pills if the impact of these drugs are good. These drugs reduce sexual desires. It should not be a strict liability, but should be a case by case basis. Those with Hypersexuality Disorder should probably be forced onto these drugs with or without consent.
Once again, try appealing to reason and logic, appeals to emotions DO NOT WORK.
I’m going to keep reporting you. Seriously cut it out with the Nazi apologetics.
There is no “rational discussion” to be had, when it involves torturing and experimenting on people. Only a sociopath could calculatingly push this. My family in wars have died to stop evil people like you. The crimes someone committed (which can be avoided if you treat them like human beings) became irrelevant the moment you started pushing Nazism.
Go back to /v/pizzagate, QAnon or where ever it is you come from. I know well of your subversion tactics, you pretend to be a reasonable person and try to subvert threads of “the enemy” onto the path to doom. Nazism and fascism must be stopped at all costs.
You have also ignored every post to the contrary ever made and persist in trying to derail threads onto the pursuit of Nazism. Both you and your ideology are pure evil and even illegal to advocate in many civilized countries. Nazism is no less bad, or even worse, than child rape ideology and extremely offensive.
If you want a so-called “rational discussion”, then try pushing a thread to discuss means to reduce recidivism without the Nazi slant. You won’t give *** for talking like a Nazi, if you simply talk in the calm and rational manner you pretend to be a big “fan” of. Nazism is my red line and you know that pretty *** well.
You can’t forcefully medicate innocent people.
You can’t forcefully medicate innocent people.
That wasn’t the goal, only offenders convicted beyond reasonable doubt deemed 1)High Risk 2)would benefit from such medication.
Hi, stepping in here, sorry if I was a bit slow. @Ethical-AI has an opinion that others in this forum find highly offensive, but I’m not going to delete their posts that have been flagged. Even though the ideas may be offensive, they have been expressed in a civil enough way, and I feel that we should also be able to voice strong opinions provided that nobody is dehumanizing or insulting any other individuals.
For what it’s worth I agree that there are huge ethical problems with forced medication for anybody, and the medical and legal professions have grappled with this problem for a while. In most states where forced chemical castration is permitted, it is limited to repeat offenders against children under 13. The ACLU of Florida has said that the use of these drugs could be offered “under certain controlled circumstances as an alternative to incarceration for convicted sex offenders.”
In no cases can chemical castration be justified as a compulsory treatment for someone who has not offended. Thankfully, this is not on the table in any U.S. state. But in other countries, it has been used—not only on pedophiles but also on gay people. So we need to keep a very watchful eye on this new treatment to ensure that it is not misused by repressive governments, and this is something that I think Dr Rahm is fully conscious of.
With that, I think we should try to scale back the heat of the discussion on both sides. Everyone has had a chance to say their piece forcefully, and we should acknowledge that some people hold their opinions so strongly that they are not going to change them through further discussion.
For what it’s worth I agree that there are huge ethical problems with forced medication for anybody, and the medical and legal professions have grappled with this problem for a while. In most states where forced chemical castration is permitted, it is limited to repeat offenders against children under 13. The ACLU of Florida has said that the use of these drugs could be offered “under certain controlled circumstances as an alternative to incarceration for convicted sex offenders.”
Yeah, I do see ethical concerns with forced medication, I strongly oppose strict liability forced medication based on a violation of a criminal statue. But we should be open to the idea of compulsory medication. I’m not sure I agree with just limiting to repeat offenders of children under 13 as an alternative to prison. What about a first time offender who raped a 12 year old and it’s determined that he would benefit from such drugs with evidence-based risk assessment benchmarks? What if these drugs will have no material impact on his psychological health? For example, if a drug is at risk of giving depression, force him to take anti-depressants as well. What if he refuses to give his consent to both these drugs? I would argue that it would NOT be ethical to NOT forcibly medicate him at this point.
If we increase the number of individuals given these drugs, we can collect far more data. I want to see more on these drugs so we can get a better understanding of them. There will be benefits beyond lower recidivism and better self control on part of the convicted. Many of similar drugs are used for other things, HRT for trans people, treatment for certain cancers, you name it.
I’m not saying we should rush blindly into this, but maybe we ought to take a second look at compulsory medication for high risk on a case-by-case basis rather than comparing doing so to Mangele or the Nazis. Difficult decisions are often made, and will have to be continued to be made.
You could throw them in prison, in the mental hospital or give them capital punishment, but once someone has served their time, they have served their time.
There is no subverting due process by going “well actually, we’ll hold you indefinitely, because our quack has decided you don’t meet our arbitrary statistical models quite right” or “we think you might be high risk, we’re going to torture you now”.
There is a legit moral panic where people will push for means far above what is reasonable, rational, or normal. There is no “special crime” and dehumanizing tactics are only ever employed by QAnons. There is so much false rhetoric that this is beyond meaningless.
For years, many tools have appeared.
Reducing stigma, studies showing that psychologists would be more adept at handling counseling by not shaming someone (shaming someone increases the probability of them increasing crime, according to researchers) and instead building up their self-esteem, funding the mental healthcare systems that governments don’t take seriously at all.
You also can’t medicate yourself out of a social problem, anymore than you can get Big Tech to wave their magic wand with the much over-hyped PhotoDNA to make a problem go away. It is always a big problem with big costs and big efforts and it will never go anyway that I or you or anyone else wants it to.
You can’t simply pathologize every problem and attribute it to chemicals or anything else, this is a huge problem with so many so-called wannabe “doctors” nowadays. If we give someone a drug, they might not steal, or you could lift them out of poverty, so they don’t have the motive to do so. If this was any other problem, we would not even pretend this is a good idea, not a veneer of a pretension.
I will also tell you a teeny-tiny secret about psychologists. Psychologists are useless. Absolutely useless. They can’t weigh risk factors for shit, even at the best of times. Case-by-case basis is whatever they feel won’t lead to them being held liable or scapegoated if they’re wrong. You have no idea how many human rights abuses there are in the mental health system in so-called free and democratic countries. A lot of these psychologists don’t really care either. They make their diagnosis and wash their hands of it. If you’re black or anything they don’t like, expect to be particularly “high risk” like in the rest of the so-called “justice system”.
Researchers also get their papers overturned due to their reliance on faulty data, p hacking, their own ideological biases and more so often that it’s not even funny. Evidence based models my ass. You don’t know anything about the pitiful state of what constitutes the “field of psychology”. A researcher goes in looking for a particular answer and deliberately cherry-picks all the data-points which agree with them and calls that “research”.
I will compare you to the Nazis because you are behaving like a Nazi. Is anyone else here going on about this? (don’t go making alts on me.) Do you have any idea how many people you’re making uncomfortable and scared with your comments? Don’t cosplay as a Nazi. It is not cute. It is not funny.
If this subject makes you emotional to the point that the immediate reaction is “I want to see these motherfuckers be strung up”, then don’t engage in it, don’t look at it either. What leads you instinctively to “solutions” like this is not quite seeing someone as fully human. I don’t go on every website calling for genocide that will upset me either.
You are also going on about “data”, “data”, “data” as if people here have not been subjected to this torture and nearly died and been driven psychotic, and made the problem worse and less controllable, thank you very much. The psychosis and obsession with continuing the treatment simply because it is “the correct thing” to do and sexuality is evil keeps pushing someone. Someone will do anything to lie to psychologists, lie to doctors, if they can do it. Psychologists have no clue about people’s psychologists either, and neither do they give a shit, so long as they can publish a paper pretending to have a cure.
HRT is a different story. When you are trans, your brain is architected in such a way that your own hormones poison it and make you suffer. Shutting them off gives you some level of relief and the correct ones make someone feel even better. Anti-depressants are useless from anyone I have ever spoken to for anything relating to hormones, an anti-depressant doesn’t even induce a normal mental state, but a mania where you are in lala land disconnected from reality and any consequences.
There is a huge problem in some societies where people would rather inject themselves with drugs for “depression” than to change their lifestyle, go out for walks, and other solutions which don’t have a hundred side-effects. Some of which are listed as “possible stroke”, “possible death”, desperately masturbating for hours on end and jumping on people to try to relive the sensation (from a source not here), going to the toilet every hour, and so on. Big Pharma is not your friend.
I have a feeling sometimes that you just want me to say that CP should be legal because that will solve a bunch of problems without forcing them to ingest harmful drugs. Be careful what you wish for. I’ll pass on it as I would rather not give you the satisfaction.
Nice misrepresentation. I’m not impressed. I do not function based on emotion, but on reason. There are some offenders who are not worthy of human rights. This is just reality.
There is no subverting due process by going “well actually, we’ll hold you indefinitely, because our quack has decided you don’t meet our arbitrary statistical models quite right” or “we think you might be high risk, we’re going to torture you now”.
You also can’t medicate yourself out of a social problem
You can call it torture all you want, but you have yet to prove to us that these drugs lead to psychological distress. If you watch the Prostasia interview video, many of the subjects said they wanted to continue these meds. Does not sound like torture to me. It doesn’t suddenly become torture when it’s done by coercion. High-recidivism risk offenders, whether we are dealing with those addicted to possessing a large amount of CSAM, or actual child rapists should be considered candidates for these meds. They should be forced to take them if the following criteria are met:
None of us here advocating for this as a total solution, but to pretend it cannot be a small part of the solution is absurd and irrational.
There is a huge problem in some societies where people would rather inject themselves with drugs for “depression” than to change their lifestyle, go out for walks, and other solutions which don’t have a hundred side-effects.
Depression can be caused by hormonal imbalances. Often it’s not, but sometimes it is which is the point of these meds.
If this subject makes you emotional to the point that the immediate reaction is “I want to see these motherfuckers be strung up”, then don’t engage in it, don’t look at it either. What leads you instinctively to “solutions” like this is not quite seeing someone as fully human. I don’t go on every website calling for genocide that will upset me either.
No one here is calling for genocides, but you are known for overhyping things. I do not consider child rapists and CSAM addicts to be equal to me. CSAM addicts to me are broken men who need to be rehabilitated by any means necessary, if a particular CSAM offender requires drugs to no longer be of high recidivism risk, than so be it. Their lack of consent is not terribly important to me.
We will only violate their bodily autonomy to the degree that we need to rehabilitate them. Nothing more. If they were an engineer and gamer cisgender male who likes brown hair, I have no interest in changing that aspect of them. But if they were also a paedophile, self esteem or compulsive issues, that would be something we should aim to correct to the biggest degree possible.
Statistically, pedophilic CSAM offenders have a higher recidivism rate than non-pedophilic CSAM offenders. StopItNowUKIreland has also Highlighted compulsion and low self esteem as risk factors. These two things should probably be dealt with via therapy. But for some offenders, and I really mean a minority of them, medication is a part of their rehabilitation, and as such, should be forced onto them if deemed high risk.
If indeed a cure to pedophilia were found, I may consider making the treatment strict liability for anyone with a CSAM offense who is also determined to be pedophilic. It will not be framed in a way to shame the offender, but freeing him from the curse. This will allow us to uplift his self esteem while curing him of the disorder. This ought to also be applied to other sex offenses as well.
You are right about not seeing child rapists as fully human. Why should I, and why should anyone? Unlike with CSAM possession offenders whom I do care about their well being and their redemption. Child rapists have far less consideration. If we are going to force any CSAM possession offenders onto medication, we must be very careful to ensure this is done humanely. This requires the drugs to be very safe, all side effects are sorted out.
When it comes to child rapists, we should be willing to use barely tested drugs onto them by force. If they are harmed irreversibly, it isn’t such a big deal. A child rapist’s life is not of significant value, if they die, they die, so what. We got some data that we could use. But doing so to any other criminal would be a ghastly violation of human rights.
Any experimental cure to pedophilia ought to be done to child rapists first. As it’s more likely to be risky at this stage since killing them by accident via experimentation is not a significant loss.
I have a feeling sometimes that you just want me to say that CP should be legal because that will solve a bunch of problems without forcing them to ingest harmful drugs. Be careful what you wish for. I’ll pass on it as I would rather not give you the satisfaction.
These drugs are not “harmful”, but do keep trying. CSAM must remain illegal and I do not want anyone advocation for their legalization.
Once again, I am not pretending that medicine is the only solution, but it can be A PART OF THE SOLUTION. IT’S A PART OF THE PUZZLE TO SOLVING THIS PROBLEM
Under the argument of the “greater good”, they would have to be legalized under your calm and collected arguments. It is irrelevant of whether you want or not.
This is a pandora’s box you will open, if you bring ethics and morals and “greater good” at any cost into this. This is also why it is better to stick to sides which don’t involve throwing people under a bus.
You don’t want people to advocate for things which offend you, but get offended in turn? Curious, no?
From a purely utilitarian standpoint, a small pool of victims, possibly even very stale content, would reduce crime by a fair margin (some think 50% or more), bolster the economy (as they can better contribute to society), improve self-esteem for a significant minority of the population (five percent) and more.
From the lens of the “greater good”, this would objectively be a “better scenario”, but it is also a scenario of a “tyranny of the majority” which individual rights are supposed to be afforded to prevent. You are simply creating another “tyranny of the majority” to resolve another.
If you were not so emotionally charged, then you would have realized this, before you walked in here after seeing various bits of research.
There is no point in talking to you further. If you disqualify my personal experience of suffering and those of my friends and associates, then so be it, but do not think I will side with fictions from someone who is clearly emotionally charged.
I don’t know where you are getting this from. Many are quite functional in society, in-fact I have known of some prior to their getting arrested. They were very big net contributors to society and helped many hundreds of people.
These are not “broken men”. These are simply people with sexual impulses that follow a different pattern than your own. What does tend to “break people” is interactions with the legal system, and from notes from yet others, forced “therapies”.
I am unsure of where you’re getting your data, but it is clearly false, it seems as if it may be a distorted view based on your own misconceptions. They have also stressed repeatedly that they have never assaulted a child or are at risk of doing so, merely apologizing for dragging others into the mud with them after having their reputations tarred.
You are once more misrepresenting information, falling back onto rhetoric that just because someone does one thing, they will do another. This is another part of your emotionally charged response.
I take a lot of research, particularly from orgs like Stop it Now! UK as they have a history of cherry-picking data, and some bits of research even involve threatening to disqualify people from parole, if they do not “confess to their crimes” in a clinical setting.
They also have a tendency of confusing cause and effect. They say that viewing CP increases the risk of offense, but really, someone who has offended is likely someone who is more likely to view CP, rather than the other way around. It is convenient for the media to try to push the “inverse” as it suits their agenda.
I don’t see why you feel the need to invalidate my abuse at the hands of society pushing dangerous ideas. I prefer not to make this too personal, as I would prefer not to trigger that trauma, okay?
Considering that a majority of them are children, you are literally advocating child abuse.
This is another misconception, they are all adult men in their fifties balding, right? No. There are people of all ages, all classes, all social stratus, all professions, all levels of intelligence, all levels social contribution, people of all genders, gender identities, and many many people offend physically, when they are children or teenagers.
You don’t need to be a pedophile to be sexually attracted to children when you’re a child either, duh.
You may even say this is not what you meant, but we put them on the register, bind them by the same registration requirements way past that age, destroy their employment prospects, shame them and vigilantes will even come to kill their families due to association, even if the one they touched was a family relative, who also suffers.
I have also spoken to victims, or survivors as some are want to call themselves, who actually felt guilty when someone was sent away on a very punitive punishment or committed suicide. They may want them to face justice, but it doesn’t necessarily mean they want to finish them. Opinions obviously vary, but it isn’t that simple.
You are too lost in your emotionally charged state of looking for retribution. Perhaps, it is a lack of experience than an inherent personal flaw.
Links:
Not really a fan of the focus on “consent”. If it benefits them, why should it matter whether they “consented” or not.
That’s literally how Inquisitors justify their actions, by claiming that they are “saving souls”.
That’s literally how Inquisitors justify their actions, by claiming that they are “saving souls”.
If a person are addicted to viewing child pornography, it would be very obvious they don’t know what’s best for you. I say at that point let the courts override their consent since a CP addict has less capacity to consent than an average adult. We are allowed to forcibly medicate the mentally ill, we should do that for CP addicts as well. Doing so will save children as well as the offender from himself. It will also save his family from shame.
I was almost considering agreeing with you until I heard that last line. As someone from a Chinese family, I come from a culture where hundreds of thousands have gotten themselves killed in completely imbecilic ways to avoid “shame”. Haircuts? Shameful: Queue (hairstyle) - Wikipedia
Remember when Goebbels killed his kids and then himself, and everyone moaned about that? Goebbels children - Wikipedia Pull that shit in China, and people love you for it because it frees your children from the “shame” of living in defeat: Liu Chen (Shu Han) - Wikipedia Doing something for the express purpose of “avoiding shame”, to me, is the most shameful thing.
I agree almost wholeheartedly. “Shame” is not defined very well.
Viewing kiddie porn is a form of degeneracy so it brings shame as well as harm to victims. Cannot be tolerated. They must be forced to get help, including possible use of pills to reduce their sex drive if their sex drive is above normal, especially if they are exclusive-map.
I’m invoking Godwin’s Law and closing this thread to further posts. I think both sides have gone too far in making their respective points. Thank you for your contributions but let’s leave it there.