Actually, it may not be as bad. One of the children could be coercing the other, which is the same problem with adults, but 2 children exploring sexuality on their own, without force or chicanery, is quite normal. I’ll show you mine, if you show me yours. Of course, as a 13 year old, I was seduced by a 12 year old and convinced to engage in much more than “showing.” A lot more. But there was no coercion and it remains a treasured memory today. I don’t have any trauma and the only regrets I have, are the times I passed up a potential experience due to an overabundance of caution.
3 Likes
I am talking specifically of children here, so if it’s 13-12… then we are talking about teenagers. Very young teenagers indeed, but still teenagers. Teenagers can and should explore their sexuality, children can’t because they don’t have any, or at least shouldn’t have any.
1 Like
The oversimplified point I was trying to make was that by denying people the right to create or invent fictional worlds where children can and do consent to sex with adults, you’re essentially robbing them of creative freedom and there’s no real adult-child sex taking place anyway, so lumping that in with a normative definition which includes real-life adult-child sexual activity is unnecessary and creates confusion, rather than reason or clarity. It’s the same logic as calling a horror movie where a character is shown being gruesomely murdered a “snuff film”.
In any case, I understand yet still disagree with your skepticism about the exploitive nature of real-life adult-child sexual conduct, as you yourself pointed out the difference between a child and an adult preemptively justifies such a normative observation. It isn’t simply limited to that, however. You yourself and @Larry even pointed out that minors are just as capable as adults of sexually exploiting one another and are not excepted from having imbalanced power dynamics, not to mention acts of sexual aggression between minors.
But where I feel your skepticism falls apart here is that it almost feels like you’re assuming that people consider adult-child sex to be “more wrong” than the other, which simply isn’t true. The fact that adult-child sex is simplistic in its distinction from minor-on-minor sexual abuse does not detract from the fact that they’re still forms of sexual abuse and are equally “wrong”.
If two teenage lovers are exploring each other’s bodies and one says that they’re not ready to go “all the way” yet, but their partner is unreceptive to their reluctance, or simply unaware of the fact that they are withholding consent and “goes in” anyway, it’s understood that this is rape because one party made it clear that they did not consent to that act and the other party was not willing to hear or accept “no”.
If two children below the age of pubescence decide to “play doctor” and inspect one another’s naked bodies and one child becomes uncomfortable and wants it to stop and resists, yet the other child persists, ignoring the worries of their friend, then that would still be regarded as a form of assault because the ultimate question of consent was ignored to sate the curiosity of one party at the deliberate expense of the other.
Whether or not that assault would be regarded as sexual is contingent on whether or was committed out of a sexual interest or sexual curiosity, rather than an anatomical or platonic one.
If you have two adults at a bar and one has their drink spiked by a mind-altering substance or is left in an inebriated state that has plainly and apparently impacted their reasoning or critical thinking skills, it’s very likely that they wouldn’t be able to consent to sexual activity either. This is why “date rapes” are so problematic and hard for people to confront or address, because adhering to the normative stance that they were taken advantage of can be a tough truth to swallow.
If you have a grown adult sitting with some younger child relatives, and the man asks them to “sit on his lap” or requests unnecessary, prolonged acts of familial affection while using these opportunities to touch, smell, or behave in in a manner or act to sate or gratify a sexual interest they may have, that’s considered sexual exploitation because it’s unlikely that these children were aware of these facts and knew how to spot them these acts, and their place as an older relative may deter them from refusing or saying no, all of this made even worse if such acts would be refused if given the opportunity to do so without the fear of negative consequence or coercion.
If you have a grown adult and a child, sitting down with each other, engaged in sexual activity, and the child was brought up or raised to believe that such activities were appropriate and acceptable, that still represents a form of sexual exploitation made worse if genital-on-genital penitration is involved, becoming full-on child rape. The logic by which these normative definitions would be justified is contingent on the same precautionary factors that you’ve known about before, coupled with their lack of innate sexual functioning as they’ve yet to reach the level of physical or mental maturity to have, let alone understand, express, or control those feelings as they would their adult abuser, who very clearly has these feelings and is employing the fondling of a real child to satisfy themselves.
What defines rape and sexual assault is the absence or rejection of consent regardless of whether it was deliberate, as action should be taken to ensure that all parties involved are willing and aware of the activities they are engaged in.
The level of difference between two teenagers happily and eagerly “fooling around” and an adult receiving oral sex from a pre-pubescent child is made apparent and exemplified by the physical and mental qualities and attributes of the parties specified, along with social and cultural power dynamics. Whether or not people have fond childhood memories of sexual encounters with adults are their own to bear and even cherish, but please understand that these people are the exception and not the rule. It’s very easy to look at the past with rose-tinted glasses colored by your perceptions, tastes, and ideals of the here-and-now, so it’s very likely that a person may not have actually consented despite remembering that they did.
The overwhelming majority of children out there who have experienced similar or identical scenarios with adults do not remember them fondly as they age, and as such experience great hardship with matters pertaining to sex later in life, be it the development of Sexual Aversion Disorder or PTSD.
The fact that the instinctive desire to conform to normative ideals about sex in order to comfortably “fit in” coupled with the prospective guilt they’d feel if they didn’t share and express exaggerated views or invent memories which are drastically worse than the abuse they suffered also doesn’t help, and it’s very difficult to recognize that fact and objectively understand why it’s still a form of abuse, but this observation is not mitigated or controlled by the fact that so many children are negatively affected without that social reinforcement and influence.
It is this majority rule backed up by statistical observation which justifies the normative presumption that real-life, non-fictional adult-child sexual activity is a form of sexual exploitation and abuse.
As I said, in fiction, I deliberately try to be as offensive as possible. Fucking a loli? Sure, but also make said loli a WWII German officer.
2 Likes
I must disagree with you again in that particular part. Also, remember that I am only talking about children, something like 9-10 years old. But anyway, I understand that when it comes to the known idea that children can’t consent, we aren’t saying that they never want to consent, we are saying that it doesn’t matter if they seem to consent or not, the child simply does not know what sex means and why it is harmful to her. So discussing if they consented or not doesn’t even make sense. And going back to the part I disagree with, as I said, I see the fact that adults can influence children as something that leads to the problem, and not the problem itself. The problem is a child inserted in a sexual context. And finally, we are here discussing a case where the problem already happened, then what led to it is no longer relevant. And so, the scenario with two kids is worse because again, there are twice as many children involved. Well, but don’t understand that I’m saying that we have to pay more attention to the problem of two children having sex. Of course, if adults can influence children to do this, then they are more likely to cause this problem. So it’s natural to pay more attention to the case of adults abusing children. Again, not because this is a worse case, but because it’s easier to happen.
Bumping this thread because it’s relevant.
For years, I’ve been saying something similar to what’s above. Punishment should be as fictional as the crime.
A stick figure can represent. At what point does a drawing or figure go from permissible representation to prohibited?
Comparing fiction with reality is akin to comparing the truth with a lie.
It’s not evil to think that shape isn’t what makes the precious precious and hence cannot make dolls or cartoons precious either. It’s not evil to think that what happens to a doll or a lifeless object doesn’t matter.
4 Likes
1 Like
Even though some fictional loli content is disgusting to me, I think it decreases time from going after criminals that actually harm people. Instead of going after real criminals, resources are instead focused on victimless crimes. The video above would have been considered obscene in the 60s probably. This is why obscenity makes no sense.
1 Like
I recently got a response from another anti on the comments section of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLDUfMWmRAA&lc=UgxJ6zjbaFPUrSOf_sJ4AaABAg.9Qw2xLI0m_ZA42KlxW_BGb For ease of reading, I’ll also directly copypaste it here:
From the one named @finalfrog2825
Art is by definition representations of reality humans make via a copying procedure. It is done by a person reading preexisting environmental information, and writing it elsewhere in all cases, no exceptions. Drawing works that way, so does photograph, therefore they are both art. What is CP other than the reading of inappropriate juvenile features written elsewhere? Nothing, that why a photo counts as CP. Drawings of people (anime characters for example) can’t exist if human features didn’t first exist to be copied from, sexualized loli/shota can’t exist if the sexual features of human juveniles didn’t first exist to be copied from, therefore these drawings must meet the criteria of CP, therefore your conclusion is an incoherent mess.
Nonsense, of course, but how should one respond to him, besides mockery?
4 Likes
You could describe the law of similarity as it pertains to sympathetic magic.
It’s not evil to think that if no one’s getting hurt, it doesn’t matter.
I forgot that I already stated something similar to what I just deleted.
1 Like
I mean, yes, both photos and drawings are art, but photos involve victims being hurt, and drawings don’t. This guy is a moron
4 Likes
This guy’s entire rebuttal is completely wrong and incoherent. It is entirely premised by information that is entirely wrong, and is built around an ill-informed fundamental misunderstanding of what art is and how people go about conceptualizing things. It fallaciously compares photographs to drawings, despite the fact that drawings depicting things that do not or cannot exist has been around for ages. Just look at the depictions of biblically-accurate angels, same with cherubs or the sexually ambiguous angels.
Also, loli characters are based on petite/youthful adults more so than anything else, given how much smaller the average Japanese woman is compared to that of a white person, so there is a great deal of cultural difference this person is ignorant of.
3 Likes
Apparently, his idea is that the knowledge needed for those drawings, such as children’s nipples and genitalia, would have had to have come from knowledge of real children’s parts somehow up the chronological line.
Some things would be anatomically impossible, if it stuck too close to life. It’s impractical. An artist might use a little doll with bendable joints for posing. If you’ve seen a talented artist work, they can draw a lot on their own. Drawing adult content requires a general knowledge of human anatomy and a higher skill level than a lot of other things.
Someone isn’t just reproducing something they’re seeing like a camera shutter. Might someone get inspiration from random things they see? Maybe but it’s a nonsense argument to conflate that with child porn. There wouldn’t be child porn involved anywhere. It doesn’t have to be.
Well, there are reference texts, with drawings/photos of the stages of development. They are not CSAM. You don’t need anything illegal to gain that information.
4 Likes
What is condemned is the harm caused by the production of recording abuse.
Fictional material has no link to harm.
I meant to post this in this thread.
CSAM is exactly that. Child Sex Abuse Material. That means a real person, a child, was abused by an adult. Or possibly coerced into performing sex acts with another child of similar age, or masturbating; to be recorded in some visual form for later viewing or shared or sold for the viewing pleasure of others. Very simple. Some child’s life has been irrevocably harmed by a monster!
Conflating anything else to be equivalent to such a horror, denigrates the the child and the crime against humanity. Invalidating the child, treating that person as simply an object. Real harm is the ONLY harm that should be punishable. Imaginary or potential outcomes should be invalidated completely. People are unpredictable. Attempting to surmise any outcome is no different than trying to play God.
3 Likes
I think the idea is that how does one know what a naked child looks like unless someone up the chronological line saw one.
Adults are grown-up minors.
3 Likes