Someone posted a bunch of screenshot of your forum on facebook. They said it’s very weird for a child defense organization to post so much about porn defending it. Why? When it harms children. You know children cannot consent to sex or porn yes? no one under 18 can consent to sex with adult or to view pornography or to be used in pornography you agree or disagree if you disagree I will tell everyone about your organization and the truths.
Adult porn is still harmful but it should be seen as a drug not art. It is evil. It’s a drug just like Tobacco, Cocaine, Alchohol.
Please, provide the link to this facebook group, I’m willing to learn more about it.
It doesn’t.
Of course, no one on this forum disagrees with that.
Of course, no one on this forum disagrees with that.
So far you made two statements about this organization that were false, so I doubt your validity as a reliable source of information, but feel free to provide free adverisement.
It’s not.
It’s not.
It’s not, human beings lead to trafficking.
What? If such people don’t care about providing any evidence for their claims, why should I do exercise myself as well? They think they know the truth, but they don’t. And how do I know that they are wrong and I’m right? Because I said so. Don’t blame me, these are the rules that Adjam has set.
And no, just because someone wrote something on the internet that confirms your preexisting beliefs, doesn’t automatically make it true. Written quotes of people, and nothing more, isn’t reliable evidence of any position. If I were to create an entire website filled with “stories” of “people”, which of course you wouldn’t have any chance of knowing aren’t faked, would you instantly accept anything I wanted you to accept? Of course not, that would be ridiculous. So why are you making exceptions?
Please, provide the link to this facebook group, I’m willing to learn more about it.
You trying to gather information on them?
It doesn’t.
Children often traumatized after seeing pornography. they cannot consent to watching it you should know that. Children watch porn and learn bad things about it. Not acceptable whatsoever.
It’s not.
Adults trafficked in porn is very harmful.
And yes, sexual addiction is a thing. They watch tons of porn get desensitized and seek out more extreme images this is addiction. Porn works like a drug. Phychology Today is not reliable as source so I won’t click on it.
In the UK, for example, 16 year olds can have sex with anyone 16 or older.
26 year olds still should have nothing to do with 16 year olds. Lots of stuff is legal but not morally correct.
On whom? You said it’s a facebook group, so most people can join it. Do you accuse every new member of trying to gather information on people in a group of a social media site? Zuckerberg already is doing it every second.
I’m not affiliated with this organization, nor it’s mission. But I’m a curious person and I’m willing to learn the perspective of all sides to improve my opinion on the topic. You said you are in such a
group, so who is better to be asked about the sources of the opposing views than you?
Why are you showing your children pornography? You know it’s illegal, right? I might not have kids yet, but once I will have them, I will use parental control software to prevent that from happening. Alcohol has actual horrible effects on children, but I don’t see you fighting to ban it.
The grand majority of pornographic movies is made with the consent of the people participating in it. Even your site that you linked mentioned 40 of such people suing Pornhub, a site that had 13,500,000 videos before the purge. You are litteraly making a case, that because 0.00000296296% of such movies had been made with trafficked humans, the 99.999997037% of them should also be banned.
You know how ridiculous you sound?
Every source that isn’t confirming your beliefs will not be a reliable source of information for you. But you don’t need to check what professional clinical psychologists have to say, you can see the research they talk about directly since they link it in every article. But sure, rely on unconfirmed quotes of a couple of people as the source of your information and continue to be a sheep.
And no, sexual addiction isn’t a thing, at least not in the clinical sense. There is no “porn withdrawal” like in case of alcohol addiction or drug addiction, among many differences. Just because something brings pleasure doesn’t make it addictive. And if you continue to do something pleasurable to unhealthy levels, it’s not a sign of addiction. It’s a sign of lack of personal responsibility.
If you have a problem with porn addiction, it’s time to stop blaming inanimate objects, and began working on yourself. Sorry, there is no other way around it.
Yeah, I will agree, the law in the UK is definitely not a correct one. Just like their recent bans on pornography.
Well that is quite disturbing for you to say. A 19-year-old can be mentally underdeveloped, and a 34-year-old can have predatory intentions. You are allowing such situations to happen just because the numbers are this way and not the other? It seems to me that you have no idea why sexual exploitation of minors is wrong.
You are doing a really, really poor job at it. Especially considering, I don’t really like or watch porn myself. But you do make me want to start doing it, even though it’s not particularly interesting to me.
But let me ask you this question, because once again, I’m a curious person. What do you feel, personally, when you watch pornography? What is your personal reason, to hate it? And I’m talking about things that affect you, not the other human beings. How much do you watch it? When did you start, when did you end? What do you think about people watching pornography, but only the verified professional one. Did you struggled or actively struggle with “porn addiction”?
These aren’t difficult questions, I would normally send a survey onto your group to gather such informations, but since you refuse to share me with a link, I had no other option than to reduce my sample to a single person, at least for now.
40 is tip of iceberg. The real numbers are much higher. I don’t have any links for this but it’s probably true. You underestimate the true harms. I admit Adults between the ages of 18 and 80 years of age are capable of consenting to pornography. This is why Adult pornos are far less evil than child pornography which would be 0-17. But adult porno is still bad. Consent of actor is only one aspect of whether pornos are harmful or not. It’s also environment that influence morals. I explain below:
When someone watches pornography, if they watch enough pornography, there is chances they watch someone who is being trafficked. Therefore downloading adult pornography is still harmful and bad. Also there are some pornos which condone harm like pretending to be a child. When an adult age plays as a child, it normalizes pedophilia, and leads to more child abuse which is evil.
Why are you showing your children pornography? You know it’s illegal, right? I might not have kids yet, but once I will have them, I will use parental control software to prevent that from happening. Alcohol has actual horrible effects on children, but I don’t see you fighting to ban it.
I don’t show any children pornography. As showing pornography to children is a form of child sexual abuse as said from the Canadian government. But you are the one saying pornography does not harm children. It harms children. When so much porn is everywhere, they will watch it. Most parents do not use parental controls, so porn will harm children. They will get bad influence and harm themselves.
Of course, they will be much higher, not every crime is reported. But then again. Right now, in the height of people opposing pornography in general, and many campaigns being organized, we know only about 40 of such people.
And once again, it was 13,500,000 videos before the purge. How much of a margin of error do you want to assume? 30%, 300%, 300000%? It’s still a drop in a sea of contents that was made with peoples consent, people whose earnings depend on this jobs. You are trying to punish 13499960 people, because some horrible human beings hurt 40 people.
I’m not saying that those 40 people shouldn’t be helped. They should. But they should punish people who has been forcing them into trafficking. Pornhub had a poor system of validating their users, they acknowledged that, and began improving, after the first Traffichub situation. That is what you should strive towards as well. To put pressure on those sites to improve their systems, so both people who consent for acting in porn can do the job that they want to do, and people who are trafficked can have the videos of them never uploaded in the first place.
Also, notice the fact, that thanks to a lot of those videos of people being trafficked, that were uploaded to sites like pornhub, the police was able to localize them and rescue them from further exploitation. The world isn’t just black and white.
What you are proposing, is to ban all cars and trucks, because a small portion of drivers kills people while driving. That isn’t the solution.
You want to make 13499960 people suddenly went broke, in a current situation of a pandemic, where it’s harder to find an alternative job because 40 people were hurt.
And you pretend that your cause is moral. It’s not. And I’m not saying you are a bad person, I’m saying that you refuse to see the bigger picture, allowing your bias to make the judgement for your mind.
I only assume things that are proven to be true. I don’t pretend that my beliefs are correct when I have no proof of them being correct. I say 40 people because I only know about 40 people. But of course, I suspect more people are silent. The question is, however, how many? And I doubt it will be over 1% considering the number of videos hosted only on this single site.
What if the adult is coerced, or drugged like in the case of GirlsDoPorn? What if the adult is unconscious or drunk? Just because a person is above the age of 18 doesn’t mean they can’t be raped. You seem to not understand the real reasons why sexual exploitation of minors is wrong if you believe that.
You make the same mistake as a certain previous user, who claimed to oppose sexual exploitation of minors but defended a judge letting a 32-year-old child predator went without charges because she was a woman and the 14-year-old boy was a male. If you like anecdotal evidence, you can see my response to him here:
Long story short, the age isn’t some magical number that turns peoples ability to consent. Most people under the age of 18, 19 and even 20 cannot really give informed consent, simply because they aren’t necessarily in a position to participate in a well-balanced relationship, that wouldn’t result in exploitation.
Yes, but that chance, is extremely low. And this is why you should care for the porn industry to prosper. So verified and well monitored legal institutions can produce professional porn that doesn’t involve any trafficking whatsoever. If you delegalize porn, do you think people who traffick humans will simply stop trafficking humans? Of course not, they already break the law, so they would continue to do it! They would simply go to the darknet, distributing pornography illegally, with no governmental regulations whatsoever, and no ability for the government to even remove such materials without extreme and time-consumingeffort. It will worsen the problem.
This is not an argument. You are saying “Someone might see a crime like a bank robbery on video, so it’s bad”.
But I will make the argument for you, because like I said, I do read arguments on both sides.
Buying or watching ads in a pornographic material that involves someone who didn’t consent to sexual act gives money to people who produced such illegal material, giving them more capital to invest in such practice. Which might intensity the problem of sex trafficking. This is the same problem Child Sexual Exploitation Materials have.
But what you don’t consider, is that supply doesn’t create demand. It’s the demand that creates the supply. If you eliminate legal pornography, people will not simply stop watching it. It’s like saying that if you ban food from the stores, people will stop eating. They will began buing pornography illegally, like in the days of Prohibition of sale of alcoholic beverages from 1920 to 1933 in the US. You can read about this as an example ot what would happen if what you propose is going to be allowed.
Define what do you mean by “normalizes pedophilia”. Because it’s a blank statement that doesn’t mean anything. And it doesn’t lead to more child abuse, the opposite is happening, and once again, there is empirical evidence that has long ago been accepted by the scientific community as an undeniable fact.
Because it doesn’t hurt children, unless they were exploited to produce such material, but you are not talking about CSEM, you are talking about regular porn. There are many movies that have sex scenes in it. Sure, it’s embarrassing when you are a kid to see such things, but to claim it has a traumatic effect? Such an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence. And you seem not to provide anything, other than your personal opinion.
Porn isn’t everywhere. Before the internet it was, all shops had pornographic magazines, VHS tapes and much more. But since the internet has become a common thing, most if not all porn is on porn sites. You should use parental control software to limit access to such sites, the same way you should use seatbelts to protect a child while you are driving. But you instead try to ban cars, because some people got in an accident while riding it.
And you didn’t respond to any of my questions at the bottom.
Also, here you have all the research papers directly:
Diamond, M. et al. “Pornography and Sex Crimes in the Czech Republic,” Archives of Sexual Behavior (2011) 40:1037
Diamond, M. “The Effects of Pornography: An International Perspective,” in Pornography 101: Eroticism, Sexuality, and the First Amendment, edited by J. Elias et al. Prometheus Press, Amherst, NY, 1999.
Diamond, M. and A. Uchiyama. “Pornography, Rape, and Sex Crimes in Japan,” International Journal of Law and Psychiatry (1999) 22:1.
Goldstein, M. et al. “Experience with Pornography: Rapists, Pedophiles, Homosexuals, Transsexuals, and Controls,” Archives of Sexual Behavior (19971) 1:1.
Kutchinsky, B. Pornography and Rape: Theory and Practice? Evidence from crime Data in Four Countries, Where Pornography is Easily Available,” International Journal of Law and Psychiatry (1991) 14:47.
Kutchinsky, B. “The Effect of Easy Availability of Pornography on the Incidence of Sex Crimes: The Danish Experience,” Journal of Social Issues (1973) 29:163.
Poipovic, M. “Pornography Use and Closeness with Others in Men,” Archives of Sexual Behavior (2011) 40:449
What is going to be your excuse now? “I don’t trust multiple sources of peer reviewed scientific papers published by well established scientific institutions, that were made by professionals of the fields the topic is about, that spend their entire lifes learning about the topic, because the science that allowed us to be the civilization that we are today, isn’t a reliable source of information?”
What you are proposing, is to ban all cars and trucks, because a small portion of drivers kills people while driving. That isn’t the solution.
I’m not trying to ban porn all porn. But this organization is not understanding things they should. And Pornhub and all other tubesite porn sites should be shut down and restarted with proper verification. Require all performers to provide their birth certificate and passport for proof of age than they are adult. Also provide another test to make sure no rape or trafficking or retribution porn can get through. Put an age verification for all viewers that require them to provide ID and their birth certificate. Ban Age Play because it normalizes abuse. No fictional rape scenes because it becomes too easy for a rapist to get away with upload.
And once again, it was 13,500,000 videos before the purge. How much of a margin of error do you want to assume? 30%, 300%, 300000%?
They set up the website wrong. Next time when you build a house, make sure the foundation is right. Because they did not set up the proper foundation, 70% of the house has to be removed. It’s not just trafficking, it’s also revenge and rape porn. 18-80 year olds can consent to consensual forms of porn, but revenge, rape, and trafficking porn is by definition not consensual. If you think there is only slightly more than 40 of videos you are completely WRONG. There are likely huge numbers of such videos. Such a large audience FUELS trafficking, rape, and abuse of women and children.
You ever wonder why traffickers and rapists use their victims to produce porn? Demand is why. Money. Buyers of porn. Traffickers lie that the porn is consensual and sell it on the market. Consumers do not know. This is reason why porn is harmful to others.
What do you mean exactly in detail by “normalizes abuse” or “normalizes pedophilia”. These words don’t mean anything if you don’t define what they mean. In Czech, there used to be a time when Child Sexual Exploitation Materials were legal for many years, and during this timespan, the amount of sexual abuse of children has been lowering. Correlation doesn’t imply causation, but it proves that pornography doesn’t cause rape. Of course, we should never legalize Child Sexual Exploitation Materials, since it’s production does require a sacrifice of a child’s wellbeing. But the claim that ageplay will increase amounts of sexual exploitation of children is simply proven to be false.
Still, we have only 40 people that came out with such issues. Also what about facebook, twitter and youtube, they report finding thousands more of such videos and Child Sexual Exploitation Materials on their site than pornhub, each year, but no one complains about it. Almost like it was never about the protection of victims, and instead was about eliminating pornography for ideological reasons.
You seem not to even read what I write to you:
Why would traffickers lie about porn being consensual, when if they were to want to earn money from porn production, they can simply pay a porn actress, even an amature one, to star in their movie?
What is more expensive, trafficking people risking life in jail, paying millions to cover their tracks from law enforcement, to record and sell porn on a site that sells millions of consentual videos.
Or to simply pay 20% of earnings for such movie to the actor, to do everything legally.
In both scenarios, they will earn the same amount of money. But because porn that is made with consent is legal, they are incentified to care about earning consent of the people they work with. Sometimes you will meet psychopaths that don’t abide by it. But they will exist regardless of the legality of porn.
Your hypothesis is illogical at its core. And I’m sorry, but you fail to understand that I don’t find your opinion as a credible source of information. You already made 2 false claims about this organization, why should I trust that you don’t lie about the scale of the problem when you clearly have a bias against pornography?
I don’t watch porn, I have no dog in this race. I talk to you because I can’t believe you survived as a person this far on this planet, with such simplified views of the world and such attitudes to learning.
In Czech, there used to be a time when Child Sexual Exploitation Materials were legal for many years, and during this timespan, the amount of sexual abuse of children has been lowering.
There is virtually no excuse for this to have happened. They should had never permitted child sexual images!
But the claim that ageplay will increase amounts of sexual exploitation of children is simply proven to be false.
You don’t know that. This organization said they want to do studies to find out. Until there is evidence that age play does not increase child sex crime, will support a complete prohibition on this. If you an adult, dress like an adult. It’s cringe to see 18, 24, even 30 year olds dress up like middle school kids for porn. It should be illegal. Canada is proposing the laws, it maybe passed here. How do you know by dressing up like that and pretending to be a child you are not normalizing these behaviors? Prove to us that it does not increase sexual crime against minors.
Many credible child protection organizations and a leader in child protection Michael Seto warned his followers about this. It NORMALIZES abuse. I think I will trust him over Prostasia. Until there is evidence to refute this.
Diamond, M. et al. “Pornography and Sex Crimes in the Czech Republic,” Archives of Sexual Behavior (2011) 40:1037
Diamond, M. “The Effects of Pornography: An International Perspective,” in Pornography 101: Eroticism, Sexuality, and the First Amendment, edited by J. Elias et al. Prometheus Press, Amherst, NY, 1999.
Diamond, M. and A. Uchiyama. “Pornography, Rape, and Sex Crimes in Japan,” International Journal of Law and Psychiatry (1999) 22:1.
Goldstein, M. et al. “Experience with Pornography: Rapists, Pedophiles, Homosexuals, Transsexuals, and Controls,” Archives of Sexual Behavior (19971) 1:1.
Kutchinsky, B. Pornography and Rape: Theory and Practice? Evidence from crime Data in Four Countries, Where Pornography is Easily Available,” International Journal of Law and Psychiatry (1991) 14:47.
Kutchinsky, B. “The Effect of Easy Availability of Pornography on the Incidence of Sex Crimes: The Danish Experience,” Journal of Social Issues (1973) 29:163.
Poipovic, M. “Pornography Use and Closeness with Others in Men,” Archives of Sexual Behavior (2011) 40:449
Your links published suggests that there is no link between pornography and sex crimes in general. But it does not refute the claims that extreme pornography such as pretend rape and age play do not. The reason to permit these forms of pornography should be if they reduce crime. If they have no effect or harmful, they should be criminalized.
Of course, I agree with you, but you seem to miss the point. Child pornography hasn’t lead to an increase in sexual abuse of children. The tendency was lowering. So to claim that much more vanilla things to that like ageplay would result in an increase of sexual abuse of children is intellectually dishonest.
This organization want’s to investigate the topic more in-depth, but once again, you are making a claim that ageplay will result in an increase of cases of child sexual exploitation while acknowledging that CSEM hasn’t lead to that happening. Do you consider ageplay videos as more magical than CSEM when it comes to controlling peoples minds? If so, why? What is so special about ageplay videos, that might make people interested in sexually exploiting children more willing to implement such plans than actual Child Sexual Exploitation Material.
Just because the research didn’t explicitly stated the themes of those pornographic materials that were investigated doesn’t allow you to assume the themes you personally don’t like weren’t in distribution during that time. The variable measured was porn accessibility, which included all porn, with all genres that were produced during many years of the data collected. You clearly either haven’t read those papers, or you lack proper education about the basics of statistical analysis.
Do you seriously believe they didn’t have any ageplay videos while child pornography was legal? Or after it was delegalized?
Your claim doesn’t invalidate that at large, a mix of various sexual themes in pornography, hasn’t resulted in an increase of all sexual crimes. You are trying to play mental gymnastics now to deny science because it doesn’t conform to your feelings.
Being an adult who is obsessed with what people do to their own body in the privacy of their own room not concerning anyone else, and having near compulsive desire to dictate which pornographic themes he can masturbate to, depending on their own personal erotic tastes, exceeds any cringe the individuals you described can ever generate.
How do you know that dressing up like that doesn’t lower sexual crimes against minors, by providing a safe outlet for people with such desires. Prove to us that it does increase sexual crimes against minors. Until then, you have officially declared a child rapist sympathizer. You have to prove to us, that you don’t enjoy raping little children, and until there is evidence to refute this, I think I will trust the intuition that says to me, that you are a child predator that is afraid of having their little interest disrupted by a more effective approach.
You cannot even define what normalization means, because you don’t know what it is, so what do you even trying to achieve? Define normalization if you want to have further discussion about it, until then, every statement you make with this term is rendered completely meaningless, and you are wasting your time.
Ah yes, your ultimate source of credible information. A quote. From a single person. Who happened to appeal to your confirmation bias. By making a statement. Not based in any evidence. Purely because he felt like this. I’ve given you actual research papers with empirical evidence. And all you ever have shown to sustain your positions, are quotes of other people. Your only line of defence is Argument from authority fallacy.
If I were to make a page filled with quotes of people who oppose your positions, would you change it? Of course not, so why you assume that will work on anyone if you do it.
They literally showed a correlation. Correlation doesn’t have to imply causation. Causation very much can exist, we are simply not able to infer that from the data. But even assuming the most probable option, which is that there is no causation. Correlation is still a link. Your only way of refuting this research is to play with definitions of words. I don’t know what you tried to prove other than you are not a reliable source of information since you adjust everything to your own worldview, and that you have zero credentials to interpret scientific research.
So in your opinion, Child Sexual Exploitation Materials aren’t extreme? Is this vanilla for you? Is ageplay more hardcore than Videos of Children getting sexually abused?
So you are another account of a previous user that has been on this forum before, repeating the same talking points in blind devotion to defending his misinformation. Conveniently, even your language has improved ever since your first post, from pretending to be someone with a lack of ability to use English, to a person who suddenly speaks fluently.
No, this is not how the world works. If you were to prohibit things that are neutral just because they don’t improve something, then most of the music would be banned. Most of the tasty yet expensive in production foods would be prohibited. Pretty much anything that brings joy but isn’t necessary would be prohibited with that logic.
I have provided enough arguments to completely debunk your entire position. The only thing that has left, is your argument of “normalization of pedophilia”. Which you, of course, have no idea what it means. I’m willing to bet that you can’t even list out at least 10 reasons why sexual exploitation of minors is wrong, considering your previous responses.
Once again, I’m a data-driven person. The only way for you to convince me that you are correct is if you show me the data that confirms your beliefs. That is all I’m asking. I do not accept Argument from authority fallacy as evidence of anything, as every single reasonable person. So stop wasting your limited time on this planet throwing quotes, because they lack any power of convincing anyone. Find research papers that prove, or even hint that your speculations might be correct, and I will analyze them. If I find them credible, I will agree, or I will point out issues that I have found within it.
Surely you do have such papers unless every single belief you hold is a simple figment of your own imagination. So why are you so afraid to show them?
The “National Center on Sexual Exploitation” is not reliable. They’re a socially conservative culture vulture group with a history of anti-free speech lobbying and have undergone a recent name change, where they were known as “Morality in Media”.
I advise you to properly educate yourself before jumping on us for using evidence and science. You’re a QAnon troll group.
Could you make it anymore obvious that this isn’t about women or children you just want porn banned because your personally find it offensive and just use women and children as a convenient shield while trying to act like you’re such a moral person.
I’ll tell you this much if the absolute worst thing you can say about someone is that they watch a lot of porn, then they are likely a better person then most.
Interestingly enough, I notice that most people who are anti porn and overly moralistic are often revealed to be far worse then what they are advocating against, i.e actually harming women and children…I have to wonder what skeletons lie in your closet?
I am Adjam btw. Yes, there are issues of child molesters in churches that advocate against porn. They should be executed. We all agree on this. No disagreements here. Touch a child, loose your life is a pretty good moto.
Could you make it anymore obvious that this isn’t about women or children you just want porn banned because your personally find it offensive and just use women and children as a convenient shield while trying to act like you’re such a moral person.
Are you so sure. Are you so sure that by watching adult pornography, you are not contributing to harms? How do you know you are not watching revenge or trafficked pornography? How do you know that person is really an adult and not a older looking minor? Do tubesite porn sites even verify ages? I think not and they do not verify consent of adults. And no as said I do not want to ban porn! You misunderstand me like the other guy. I want good regulation. Aggressive checking, aggressive enforcement of consent. No proof of consent should remove video or images.
Pornhub made good decision in removing all unverified material. You cannot prove the material was consensual? We should by default assume it is all revenge porn or non consent porn. Proof is the business of pornsites. Verify Age of all actors. Stop child porn from entering site. If all 18, than Verify Consent of Adult. We need to keep all trafficking, rape, and revenge porn off. Must pass both tests to upload. Human review of every video and images. Only then may porn be maybe ok.
Ok then here’s a question why get rid of all the 2d and 2.5d stuff.
Last I checked cartoons don’t have victims. And don’t you dare bring up the whole “children might end up watching” no they shouldn’t be there to begin with. I agree we should have better regulation, but why did they just nuke the site? Esspecially when they started to only accept crypto currency anyway?
