Request for expert support for the constitutional complaint against a ban on "child sex dolls" §184L in Germany

CSA prevention
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Request for expert support for the constitutional complaint against a ban on “child sex dolls” §184L in Germany

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,

in Germany, a new version of the “Kinder- und Jugendstärkungsgesetz” (A protection law for children, partly against abuse and sexual violence) will come into force from July 2021. In this new version, a new offence has been added to the law: The possession, acquisition and distribution of sex dolls with a childlike appearance.

This new law is justified on the argument that the use of a sex doll with a childlike appearance serves for practice purposes and would arouse the desire to sexually assault children. Although it has been pointed out by many experts that the claim has no basis and there is no empirical evidence to support such a claim, the law was passed.

Why does this concern me?

My name is Werner Grönke and I have been running a full-service sex doll shop with my female partner and my best friend since 2014. This allows me to realize how important this product is for many people in their lives, during conversations, repairs and sales.

So more so we look at the “person” behind the customer.

For many people it is a supplement or a replacement of missing aspects in their lives - and sex is just one of them.

So the purchase of dolls is made for a wide variety of intentions and from the number of competing manufacturers you can see that the market is gigantic - and so is the number of people now involved.

And - I would like to emphasize this here - the majority of those affected have no contact with pedophilia or the like.

The realization from this new legislation that shocked me the most is that many people who buy or own a doll will be declared criminals across the board.

At the same time, one should never forget: Many people who live alone find support and satisfaction in their doll.

The discussion in Germany is very polarizing and conservative forces bask in the applause of the media because of their great deeds for the protection of children.

That is why we - for our company and for our Dolls - have decided to act, and to remember that there are basic democratic values that apply to all people and that we should not trample on.

German ---------------------------------------------------------------->

Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren,

in Deutschland wird ab dem 01.07.2021 eine Neufassung des Kinder- und Jugendstärkungsgesetzes in Kraft treten. In dieser Neufassung wurde dem Gesetz eine neue Straftat zugefügt: Der Besitz, Erwerb und Vertrieb von Sexpuppen mit kindlichem Aussehen.

Dieses neue Gesetz wird damit begründet, die Nutzung einer Sexpuppe mit kindlichem Aussehen diene zu Übungszwecken und würde das Verlangen nach sexuellen Übergriffen auf Kinder wecken. Obwohl aus vielen Fachkreisen darauf hingewiesen wurde, dass die Behauptung jeder Grundlage entbehrt und es keine empirischen Beweise für eine solche Behauptung gibt, wurde das Gesetz verabschiedet.

Warum mich das betrifft?

Mein Name ist Werner Grönke und ich betreibe mit meiner Lebensgefährtin und meinem besten Freund, seit 2014 einen Sexpuppenshop mit vollem Serviceumfang. Dies ermöglicht mir, bei Gesprächen, bei Reparaturen und im Verkauf zu erkennen, wie wichtig dieses Produkt für viele Menschen im Leben ist.

Wir sehen also des Öfteren auf den “Menschen” hinter dem Kunden.

Es handelt sich für viele Menschen um eine Ergänzung oder einen Ersatz fehlender Aspekte in ihrem Leben - und Sex ist nur einer davon.

Die Anschaffung der Puppen erfolgt also aus unterschiedlichsten Intentionen und anhand der Anzahl der konkurrierenden Hersteller kann man sehen, dass der Markt gigantisch ist - und damit auch die Anzahl der jetzt betroffenen Menschen.

Und - ich möchte dies hier ausdrücklich betonen - der große Teil der Betroffenen hat keine Berührungspunkte mit Pädophilie oder ähnlichem.

Die Erkenntnis aus dieser neuen Gesetzgebung, die mich am meisten geschockt hat, ist, dass viele Menschen, die eine Doll kaufen oder besitzen, pauschal zu Straftätern erklärt werden.

Dabei sollte man nie vergessen: Viele alleine lebende Menschen finden in ihrer Doll Halt und Zufriedenheit.

Die Diskussion in Deutschland ist sehr polarisierend und konservative Kräfte sonnen sich medienwirksam im Beifall ob ihrer große Taten für den Schutz der Kinder.

Deshalb haben wir - für unser Unternehmen und für unsere Dolls - beschlossen zu handeln, und daran zu erinnern, dass es demokratische Grundwerte gibt, die für alle Menschen gelten und die wir nicht mit Füßen treten sollten.

Wir werden gegen dieses Gesetz eine Verfassungsklage einreichen.

Damit wir uns auf diese so gut wie möglich vorbereiten können, sind wir auf der Suche nach Informationen, Zahlen, Fakten zum Thema Sexpuppen in Zusammenhang mit Kindesmissbrauch. Alle Informationen aus In- und Ausland können nützlich sein.

Es würde uns sehr helfen, wenn Sie uns mit Ihrem Fachwissen unterstützen könnten.

Vielen Dank im Voraus.

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@prostasia @terminus

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Yes, we encouraged @Dollslounge to post this here. There is a strong community in Germany building support for a constitutional challenge to the German law, which we fully support and are assisting with. More updates to come!

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Thank you very much, because many people talk about Lovedolls , but only few People understand what about they talk!

With sexual inclinations it is even worse: Mostly nonsensical moral concepts triumph over the sensible view and way of dealing of the mainstream.

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My best hopes and wishes for sense and logic to triumph over the cries and shrieks of prejudice and anxiety masked as morality!
It’s this exact kind of cultural paranoia that helped build the Nazis, who were notoriously conservative and fascist.

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This disgusting perversion will never be tolerated. All this does is normalize sexual violence towards children and adults who look like children. Children and adults who look like children should not be sexualized nor permitted to be sexualized in any way.

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Adults who look like children? So just because their appearance disgusts you, they can never find sexual satisfaction, barring really unnecessary surgery? No, if me jacking off to them horrifies you, then I will do my best to horrify and repulse you and all your kind as much as possible.

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In some countries, the person being an adult is not a defense. I read a court case in which a person who was placed on several years of probation and about 7 years on the sex offender registry because he purchased porn of adults who looked like children. He had a large amount of this type of porn. And in several images, the adult in question was 36 at the time of the picture but they determined her body looked too young. The reason for this is because abnormally young looking adults in porn normalizes sex crimes. Porn is for adults with adult looking bodies, not for bodies that look insanely young.

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And those countries, such as the dingo’s shit hole called Australia, are completely wrong. I’ll jack off to childlike bodies all I want. Even better when they are actually adults.

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Do you have sources for this?

So short and youthful-looking people are to be forever alone and considered attractive because it makes you feel better?

So it’s your place to tell adults what to think and feel about other adults?

The world does not revolve around your feelings, people feel disgusted by foreigners, other races and homosexuals and such to the point where anyone sexualizing them are sick, and I think you’d get along pretty well with them considering you’re doing the same thing.

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Citation needed.

“Porn is only for a single heterosexual men and heterosexual women in the video, not for two men or two women or more than two bodies at once.”

This is basically what you’re saying.

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I really hate the idea of adults going into porn when they look like fucking 12 year olds. Like I can get if its an adult who looks like she could pass as a 16 year old but is actually 18 or 25. But why the fuck does someone who looks 12 be in porn?

If we are going to ban all virtual pornography in which the character appears to be 12 and this appears to be the agreement, why the fuck cant we do that with real actors?

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People can get into porn because they want to. Like people watch porn because they want to. The issue is, you’re saying what you want is magically more important than what they want.

You are essentially blaming people for things outside of their control. Nobody can control their height. Nobody can control their sexual orientation either. Just because something makes you uncomfortable doesn’t make it ok to control the lives of others.

People hate the idea of two men being together, and the way you feel about young looking porn actors is how they feel about homosexual porn. The same thing I’ll say to you is what I’d say to a homophobe who thinks it’s wrong, “Just don’t watch it, this isn’t aimed at your demographic. Let the people who want to enjoy it do so, and if you aren’t one of them, nobody is forcing you to look at it.”

If I want to draw a manga and release it online, that is my business. Not yours, not the state’s, mine. It’s between me and whoever consumes it. And if you dislike it," Just don’t look at it, it’s not meant for you. Let the people who enjoy it do so, and if you aren’t one of the them, nobody is forcing you to look at it."

The only problem is the person who is forcing themselves to look at porn that’s not aimed at their demographic and complaining about it and trying to criminalizing something that they have control over to just… Walk away from.

I usually don’t watch NTR, thing is… I might complain it’s weird, but at the end of the day, I walk away from it because nobody’s forcing me to watch it, nobody’s being hurt in its production and I’m not the target audience so it’s not my place to control what the target audience consumes.

Same with virtual porn of fictional minors, if it’s not my thing, why am I even there? At that point, I’m the problem because I’m forcing myself to be angry over a fictional story that I could easily walk away from.

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Very right and important words!
The same is for the dolls.
No one tell someone what kind of doll you have to love

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Then you shouldn’t ban any of it. Because I need my sexual release.

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It all comes down to this (no matter whether it’s about child sex dolls or virtual child pornography):

You have the right to feel disgusted about it, find them abhorrent, or even believe that they will lead to more harm. What you feel and think is your own business.

However, if you want to limit other people’s rights and their freedom by criminalizing behavior and threatening them with years in prison, you need more than just feelings. You need proof: proof that this behavior you want to outlaw is actually harmful and hurts other people.

Otherwise you can literally outlaw anything you don’t like by citing a “gut feeling” that it might turn people into rapists or serial killers. It’s the very opposite of freedom, justice and democracy.

That is why it is so concerning that the movement to ban child sex dolls is gaining more and more momentum all over the world. Denmark has banned them last year, Germany is banning them in two weeks, and there are proposals to ban them in the US and the EU. All of this despite absolutely zero evidence for their harmfulness.

This is an issue that does not only concern doll owners or people with pedophilia. This should alarm everyone who values freedom and constitutional democracy.

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In germany, prison is a last resort. First time offenders caught with this thing would likely be fined a large amount of money or placed on probation. 94% of those convicted in germany do not go to prison right away, they either get fined or placed on suspended sentence.

What I want to see happen is a licensing scheme in which a person wanting a child sex doll gets permission from qualified therapists and under strict supervision. They shouldn’t be casual toys like video games.

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Actually, the same change of law that criminalizes child sex dolls will also change the punishment for child sexual abuse and child pornography. It will soon be impossible to just fine offenders. Everyone who will be caught with just a single nude picture of a child will go to prison for at least a year (despite every criminal justice expert who was asked saying that this is a very, very bad idea which will ultimately lead to more children getting harmed).

It’s hard to say what the usual punishments for the possession of a child sex doll will be as the law is not yet in effect. The point is however that you could end up in prison for several years for something that does not affect or harm anyone. That should be alarming enough.

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I find possession of CP unacceptable and definitely not victimless, but if the experts are saying this is a bad idea, than maybe they should listen to what the experts say.

I’d rather we focus the revenge budget on the worst of the worst, child kills, child rapists, drug traffickers who push drugs onto children. Those for all I care can be executed. But for most other criminals, I’d rather focus less on vengeance and more on evidence backed policy lead by people who know what they are actually doing.

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What’s the difference between a punching bag, shooting target and child sex dolls? Because I can easily make an argument for the first two being just as dangerous as the latter if you want to go this route.

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