Censorship of 2d characters

It’s not a good idea to invalidate the claims of victims, if they feel uncomfortable with it then it’s their right to feel that way. What’s not right is them asserting this discomfort against others, especially when other victims use it as a means to cope and reclaim the experience by way of engagement and art therapy.

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What about all those faceapp images? I think those are a bit iffy as well. I think they should be removed from Pixiv

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If you report them as faceswaps of real children’s faces, they tend to get removed since that’s a direct rip of a child’s likeness. If it’s just some generic StyleGAN image, then it’s not as clear.

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Like I said, Vietnam war vets apparently experience this with Miss Saigon, and I’m sure that vets of other wars experience it with movies and plays about those wars. Doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t create content based on it.

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You sadly don’t see a lot of movies about the Vietnam War these days…

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Again, that conversation that I overheard was about Miss Saigon, and how old is that play?

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Not sure.

I know there was something recently - like, this last week - about a Miss Saigon play here in the UK being pulled or something.

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I saw the video while browsing Reddit and decided to give it a watch:

The fact that the comment section was disabled is already pretty suspicious.

-The video’s description:

A loophole in Japan’s law on child abuse material allows artists to freely draw sex with children. Despite a growing number of nations moving to ban this fictitious work, in Japan, the material is protected by a thriving manga industry and an artist’s freedom of speech.

For those who don’t want to watch the video, here are key moments (any emphasis added is from me):

-At 0:23, the narrator says:

Anime and manga are one of Japan’s most popular and lucrative cultural exports. In 2020, anime alone raked in almost 18 billion dollars in domestic and international sales with its appeal to people of all ages. Whether it’s stories about martial arts or magical girls saving the world, the focus is often on cute and innocent characters. But sometimes, the line between cute and concerning can get pretty blurry.

-At 0:55, Hanako Montgomery (a reporter from VICE News) says:

Uh, there are a few really, really young looking girls and basically little to no clothing. To me personally, it’s kind of uncomfortable, they’re very clearly children and it’s just sort of out on its way right here and people are just walking around as though nothing is wrong, nothing is different.

Note: I don’t know if the narrator and Hanako Montgomery are the same person, so from this point forward, I’m going to assume that they’re two different people.

-At 1:16, the narrator says:

These images are tame compared to what’s out there. Online and in bookshops, there’s an entire sub-genre of animated child pornography.

-At 1:25, we are introduced to Shinji, a manga artist, who says:

It’s fiction that has no victims. People should be able to enjoy themselves in their private worlds.

-At 1:37, the narrator says:

Shinji is an anime superfan and also one of the artists creating comics that show child pornography.

-At 1:43, Shinji says:

I’m sure there are people who get sexually aroused by these drawings. You can’t force someone to stop just because you’re disgusted. And you can’t create laws just because of personal objections.

-At 2:02, the narrator says:

Japanese lawmakers agree with artists like Shinji. In the US, just owning a magazine with animated child porn can get you up to 15 years in prison and label you a sex offender for life. But not here. When child pornography was finally banned in Japan in 2014, publishers lobbied to keep animated child porn legal, arguing that artists’ freedom of speech was protected by the Constitution. Today, all manga, no matter how sexually explicit, is protected by law.

-At 2:39, at his home, Shinji says:

I wonder if they’re here. (Shinji looks through some stuff) This is the first manga I ever wrote.

-At 2:45, the narrator says:

Shinji says the loophole protects his freedom of expression as an artist. He’s 49 years old, but his drawings focus on children in elementary school. He says it’s harmless because it doesn’t involve real kids.

-At 3:00, Montgomery asks Shinji (in Japanese):

What’s this story about?

-Shinji’s answer (obviously, he says this in Japanese):

It’s just about a girl who gets raped. It was in a BDSM magazine called “Rape”. The theme of the magazine was “humiliating girls”. They just told me to draw a rape. I didn’t put much thought into it.

-At 3:26, Montgomery talks back to the camera and explains, in her own words (and in English), what the story is about:

So, the story is about a young high schooler and she is getting gang raped by a bunch of high school boys, so what they’re doing is ejaculating in condoms, and then they’re putting the condoms inside the girl, and she is apparently sexually enjoying this process as well. This is quite… Um… I don’t know if “violent” cuts it, to be honest.

-At 3:54, Shinji says:

This is… Actually, this is a girl who has those desires.

-At 4:01, Montgomery asks Shinji:

Desire to be raped?

-Shinji’s answer:

Yes, she’s what we’d call a “perverted child”.

-At 4:08, the narrator says:

But, it’s not just about art. Shinji admits he’s attracted to children. He agreed to talk to us because he believes his work prevents pedophiles from abusing kids by allowing them to live out their dark fantasies alone.

-At 4:22, Shinji says:

Personally, I think of this as a deterrent. If I can provide the work, I will have prevented a [real] crime.

-Montgomery responds:

But, you don’t know that.

-Shinji nods his head up and down (meaning he agrees) and says:

I don’t know that.

-Montgomery tells Shinji:

On the other hand, in Japan, the number of cases of sexual violence against children has been increasing every year. If you can prove that there’s a link…

-Shinji interrupts her by saying:

Well, if you can prove that, then I suppose it would have to be banned.

-Montgomery asks Shinji:

But, why do we have to wait until there’s proof? Meaning that if proof has been found, that means a child became a victim.

-Shinji asks her:

On the other hand, is it wrong to wait for proof?

-At 5:10, Montgomery interviews Kazuna Kanajiri (Chief Director, PAPS). Kanajiri reads a hentai manga and says:

This is too horrible to put into words. This is a violation of human rights.

Note: I cannot believe this woman seriously says this about a hentai manga.

-At 5:18, the narrator says:

Kazuna Kanajiri runs an organization that helps victims of sexual violence, including kids who have been abused or forced into child pornography. We showed her one of Shinji’s comic books.

-At 5:30, Kanajiri says:

Right now, when I’m reading this manga, I can see the faces of those who came to us for help. Many of them were humiliated, like what you see in this manga. Others were even sexually abused.

-At 5:45, Montgomery asks Kanajiri:

Is there a link between this material and instances of real abuse against children?

-Kanajiri’s answer:

It’s impossible to measure how it’s affecting child abuse, but I think the impact is quite big. It condones child grooming and also child abuse. In fact, if young women and children are exposed to this manga, it normalizes the idea of having sex with adults. We have made a society in which children are forced to learn from experience early on that they have sexual value.

Note: If it’s impossible to measure, how can you be so sure that it has a big impact? Also, what do you mean it “condones” child grooming and child abuse? I like Darth Vader from Star Wars, but I definitely don’t condone murder (or all the other evil things he does throughout the franchise).

-At 6:44, the narrator says:

Japan isn’t the only democratic country where kids are sexualized, but it is the slowest to change its laws. Comics showing the violent objectification of children can be picked up at adult bookshops, often for less than ten bucks.

Note: “Democratic country” should be in quotes. Japan is a unitary parliamentary constitutional monarchy (according to Wikipedia). They have an emperor. Japan has had the Liberal Democratic Party as the party in power since 1955 (at least, most of the time). Maybe VICE should’ve worded that a bit better.

-At 7:01, Montgomery says:

We asked a bunch of these stores whether we can film inside, but none of them said “yes”, so we actually have to go inside with a hidden camera and see just kind of how on display these books are.

Note: Sounds like a good idea!

-At 7:16, the narrator says:

The stores don’t want to risk bad publicity and we can see why. We visited a few of them, but we can’t show you what’s on the shelves because it’s too sexually graphic.

Note: Oh come on VICE, there’s No Such Thing as Bad Publicity! Ironic, isn’t it?

-At 7:26, Montgomery is in a store that sells hentai manga and says:

And this whole aisle here is just sexual abuse, child pornography. It’s like every other page we can’t film because it’s just so much sex in it.

Note: You know, maybe bringing a hidden camera in a store that sells pornographic material wasn’t such a good idea.

-At 7:41, the narrator says:

The genres that sexualize children, and sometimes depict abuse, are called “shotacon” and “lolicon”, after the classic western novel “Lolita”. Some of these stories get pretty brutal, involving violence, incest and humiliation.

-At 7:55, Montgomery says (while reading a hentai manga):

Okay, so, this girl is a sixth grader because you can see on her (like) sports uniform, um, it’s a 6’4, so she’s in grade six and the scene is her in a photo shoot with a bunch of men, and they’re taking photos of her and (like) sexually suggestive poses and positions… And she’s so young.

Note: I put in bold the part where she says “and she’s so young”, you should hear her tone of voice when she says this. It sounds like she felt bad for the (fictitious) girl, almost as if she (and the scene) were real.

-At 8:23, the narrator says:

There are no studies that prove animated child porn leads to actual assault. What we do know from police data is that Japan is facing a child abuse crisis. More and more children are becoming victims of pornography on social media and more adults are being arrested for abusing minors.

Note: Is VICE trying to link lolicon and shotacon to actual child abuse, even though they state that there is (currently) no proof of it?

-At 8:45, the narrator introduces us to Takashi Kato (a convicted pedophile) and says:

Takashi Kato was once a massive consumer of this pornographic manga. He was also a serial child sex abuser.

Note: There’s a thread on the forum that goes over an article that VICE wrote about Takashi Kato: Fiction News - Biased and Misleading Vice Article

-Takashi Kato is being interviewed and says:

My first victim was a girl who was three or four years old.

-The narrator explains:

Kato agreed to speak to us because he says he wants to stop others from preying on children. He says he’s assaulted at least eleven kids, including abusing girls in public, teaching boys to masturbate and paying children for sex abroad.

-Montgomery asks Kato:

When and how did you realize that you had a sexual desire for children?

-Kato’s answer:

I was in middle school. I’d look at children and get very aroused. When I was in college, I found these porn magazines. There was a manga that depicted sexual abuse of young children. That very quickly became my whole sexual world.

-Montgomery asks Kato:

How did reading this manga change your understanding of sex and children?

-Kato’s answer:

I started reading these manga often. And more and more, my desire to sexually assault children increased. After seeing these depictions, those images were seared into my brain. I’d think of those images when I carried out those assaults.

Note: Is he seriously blaming hentai manga for the things that he did? Does he actually take responsibility for his crimes? If the second question is true, why does he insist the first one is also true? If you were drunk and sexually assaulted someone else, you can’t blame the alcohol for it, it was your responsibility to not commit sexual assault in the first place.

-Montgomery asks Kato:

Do you think this type of media should be banned in Japan?

-Kato’s answer:

Yes. There are people like me whose fantasies and actions escalate due to the contents of this manga.

Note: I’ll admit, I’ve also had fantasies about having sex with children… But I’ve never had the intention of actually going for it. I don’t want children to be harmed, but unless there’s proof that lolicon/shotacon causes child abuse (which, as I said, there currently isn’t), then I don’t see why it should be banned.

-The narrator says:

Kato eventually turned himself in. But, instead of prison, he got four years of probation and community service. He doesn’t know what happened to his victims.

-Kato says:

I regret it. I think that what I did was extremely wrong. I have caused deep psychological wounds.

Note: Then, why’d you do it? Oh right, the hentai manga made you do it.

-At 11:14, the narrator says:

When Japan outlawed child pornography, its Parliament refused to study the link between manga and abuse after pressure from publishers and some lawmakers.

Note: They didn’t study the link because they already knew that there was no scientific evidence that it causes child abuse. You can check out this article for more. Also, check out Wikipedia.

-At 11:23, we are introduced to Minoru Ogino (Assembly Member, Ota Ward), who says:

The comics aren’t influencing people. First, these crimes are already occurring, whether or not the manga exists.

-The narrator explains:

Minoru Ogino is an elected Tokyo official. He’s also a manga artist.

-Montgomery interviews Ogino and asks him:

Many people agree that these manga contribute to child sex abuse. What do you think about this opinion?

-Ogino’s answer:

There’s no evidence that this material leads criminals to their acts. When the state thinks about laws or regulation, there has to be a scientific basis.

-Montgomery asks Ogino:

Many countries have introduced regulations for moral reasons. Why is Japan the exception here?

-Ogino’s answer:

I think those rules are influenced by each country’s culture, set of values, and customs. There are countries that have outlawed the depiction of same-sex couples. It’s based on the will of the people. That’s democracy.

-Montgomery asks Ogino:

Have you purchased these comic books before?

-Ogino’s answer:

I don’t think so, not child pornography.

-The narrator says:

We showed Ogino one of the comics depicting child abuse.

-Montgomery asks Ogino after giving him a hentai manga:

Could you explain what’s depicted in this comic book?

-Ogino’s answer:

There’s a little girl, and… I guess this must be an old man. He’s licking her underwear. Is this really an old man? He’s drawn like a monster.

-Montgomery asks Ogino:

What are your thoughts after reading that?

-Ogino’s answer:

It’s a comic book for adults that depicts a child… That’s it.

-Montgomery is still not done with Ogino. She asks him:

Do you think this type of work should be protected?

-Ogino’s answer:

Yes, I do. I don’t see anything out of the ordinary. I think it should be.

-Montgomery asks Ogino:

So, no issues?

-Ogino’s answer:

Right.

-At 13:23, the narrator says:

There’s no plan to abandon this abusive manga. Japan’s lawmakers say there are no real victims in this. Freedom of expression is enshrined in the Constitution, but child’s rights advocates warn that this isn’t just a problem for Japan. Material that’s legal here can, and will, be viewed everywhere.

-At 13:42, back at Shinji’s house (it was probably filmed while they were still there, just inserted later in the video), Montgomery asks Shinji:

You’ve been publishing these manga for over twenty years, but does your family know about the content you’re publishing?

-Shinji’s answer:

It’s difficult to tell them about it. It’s not something that I can be proud of.

-Montgomery asks Shinji:

Do you ever feel guilty?

-Shinji’s answer:

Basically, I’d be lying if I said I didn’t. Logically speaking, what I’m doing isn’t good. I’m not doing anything praiseworthy. But, I haven’t broken the law either.

-At 14:25, a section of the video called “EXTRA” begins (I assume they meant “extra content”). Montgomery interviews Akiyoshi Saito, a psychiatric social worker who treated Takashi Kato. The narrator begins the section by saying:

Akiyoshi Saito is a psychiatric social worker in Tokyo who’s treated at least 150 child sex offenders, including Takashi Kato.

-Montgomery asks Saito:

How many of your clients consume this type of media?

-Saito’s answer:

About 90% of them have viewed these titles. Many of the perpetrators say “Pandora’s box” opened for them.

Note: So, like Kato, they basically said: “It’s not my fault, I only did those things because I read lolicon/shotacon manga. If they were banned, I wouldn’t have done those things.” True or not, it’s not the fault of the media that they consume, it’s THEIR fault for committing crimes in the first place.

-Montgomery asks Saito:

Why is it so difficult for our society in Japan to get rid of these sexual depictions of children in manga and anime?

-Saito’s answer:

I believe that children’s rights are taken lightly in our society. If our society protected children’s rights more stringently, regardless of issues over freedom of expression, dissemination of this type of material wouldn’t be allowed.

Note: Unlike actual CSAM, lolicon/shotacon doesn’t involve real children. Despite the fact that there currently is no scientific proof that this type of media causes harm to kids, they still go ahead with it and pretend like it’s something “obscene”. That’s basically what this whole video is about.

-Montgomery asks Saito:

Some people say that there’s no proof that this media links to actual sex crimes against children, but what do you make of this argument?

-Saito’s answer:

I don’t think people are born thinking that they’ll become pedophiles. They’re likely conditioned to become pedophiles through Japanese society. Not everyone will act on [this conditioning]. But, if [this material] can motivate a person to become a perpetrator, then a serious debate must be had about their existence.

Note: Okay, how the hell does a person “become a pedophile”? You can’t choose who you’re sexually attracted to. You can’t “become gay” (although, conspiracy theorist Alex Jones might disagree).

As a matter of fact, pedophilia is an age-based sexual orientation (according to experts) and itself isn’t a disorder. Both of those links were taken from here.

While I have known that I am attracted to children for years, it was only recently that I have accepted this aspect of myself. I think I was 15 when I first realized that I was a MAP, but I didn’t really understand my feelings then. All I felt was a lot of stress and anxiety. Eventually, I also had self-hatred, guilt and suicidal thoughts. I can’t look at lolicon because, you know, it’s criminalized in Canada.

I don’t want to harm children and I never had the intention to do so. But, the stigma against MAPs prevent many individuals, such as myself, to find support. Some of them end up feeling like they have nothing to lose. Denying these individuals a way to release their sexual tension by using alternatives such as lolicon/shotacon (and child sex dolls) means that some might go for real children instead.

Suppression can lead to more intense sexual thoughts. Does Saito even understand what might happen if Japan bans lolicon/shotacon?

Conclusion: Fuck VICE and fuck this video. I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, but this is even worse than what I expected. The fact that they blocked this video from being viewed by Japanese audiences leads me to believe that this was 100% intentional.

Also, don’t forget that VICE published an article in 2020 in which they gave Cuties a positive review:

@Chie I’m pinging you so that you can see my post. It may be useful for your rebuttal.

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To use Vice’s own words against them: “Why do we need to wait for proof?” :rofl:

In the case of this guy, he was molesting children long before he got into Manga. I’m sure Vice is probably claiming that the effect of Manga is retroactive, though…

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Masako Okawara of CDP has introduced a loli ban AGAIN, cant say if this is in relation to the vice news or not. The wording of it is also much more indepth compared to the previous submissions.

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I am scared that at some point Japan will cave in.

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Thank you for watching this video so that we don’t have to.

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They’re also cowardly scum for banning views from Japan.

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-Montgomery tells Shinji:

On the other hand, in Japan, the number of cases of sexual violence against children has been increasing every year. If you can prove that there’s a link…

It is funny they mention this, there is a link between things but not the kind of link these people are expecting.
I’m sure we all know about how Japan banned simple possession of child pornography on June 18 2014. Well It just so happens the number of reports of sexual abuse and number of sexual abuse cases started greatly rising around when they banned it (Prior to this it was rising but slower and not much increase, considering how long lolis have been around I doubt the slow rise prior was due to them).

Number of reports of sexual abuse:

Reported number of cases:

Retrieved from here

A different calendar system is used here, just know that H16年 is 2004 and you can count your way up from there.

“性的虐待” Refers to sexual abuse.

It seems there was a grace period for some time as they did not begin arrests for simple possession of child pornography in 2014 and numbers in 2015 are low. Perhaps there was a 1 year grace period and they only started arresting halfway through 2015.

This one starts from 2012, there is a dash for 2014 in regards to arrests for simple possession of child pornography and numbers in 2015 (17) are very low.

As you can see after banning simple possession of child pornography and enforcing it to it’s full extent (in 2016) the numbers generally rose quite a bit and seems to be growing quicker than before.

Of course this is a simple correlation and it doesn’t really mean anything but it does align with some studies which show correlation between legalization/easier access of porn and lower sex crimes.

Therefore the main take away from this is that making outlets illegal (Whether they be CP or lolicon), has a likely chance of increasing sexual abuse against children in the country they are made illegal, with the case of lolicon no real child is required to make it and so banning it will make things dramatically worse in my opinion. Also note that I’m not suggesting that CP possession should be legal as that is an entirely different discussion.

There is also the issue of when you make lolicon legally equivalent to CP it would encourage people use CP instead of lolicon.

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A lot of this pretty much lines up with what I was already going on about, though, I was hammering the point home about Vice’s demand for conformism on Japan’s part and the lack of scientific evidence justifying such prohibitions, in addition to specifying ways that Japan actively participates both domestically and globally in the prevention and punishment of child sex abuse.

This is great, though, and thank you for sitting thru this and writing up all of this.

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The demand for cartoons/fiction is not identical to that of lolicon, but there is overlap between consumers. A disproportionate amount of MAPs do consume lolicon compared to non-maps, but I’d say it’s roughly 50-50.

It would have a detrimental effect and encourage the creation of CSAM, though.

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This @akailecaflip9658 animal finally responded back. In Defense of Lolicon and Loli Art - YouTube Funny noises. In response to “Artists don’t even use legal/lawful images of children as reference because said photos do not function as a good reference images when 3D models and photographs of petite adults are more than good enough to suffice.” all the thing said was “you aren’t even an artist where did you get that from”. You know, because he has absolutely no respect for the philosophy of “burden of proof is on the accuser”.

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They are clearly committed to the belief that loli=CSEM. Their minds will filter out anything not conforming to that idea.

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Slightly off-topic, I just noticed this.

I wonder if AI generated anime art would fall under this?

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I guess as a safe rule I would not send any porn to people without their consent. Unless I know they are okay with it, I would always ask first.

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